HR Vision Podcast #15 – Tips for a more efficient Recruitment Process ft. Erwin de Wildt

By FourVision
Oct 13 • 1 min read
HR Vision Podcast Episode 15 ft. Erwin de Wildt

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Erwin de Wildt, Engagement Manager and Implementation Consultant at FourVision, comes again on the podcast to take Recruitment a step further. He’s a practical guy, with a solid expertise in talent acquisition and currently working with one of the leading Talent Experience Management platforms in the market – Phenom.

In this episode we dove a bit more into recruitment and discussed some good tactics that recruiters can benefit from. How to identify a deficient recruitment process, when to hire internally vs externally and candidate feedback are only some of the topics we covered in this one. Enjoy!

Ivo:
Hey everyone, and welcome to the HR Vision podcast. I'm your host Ivo, and every week I'm going to have a conversation that matters about HR.

This week I have with me again: Erwin de Wildt. What's up Erwin? How are you?

Erwin:
Doing good? How are you?

Ivo:
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for being here.

So Erwin as you can see, if you follow the podcast is our first repeated guests in the show. Last time he was here, we talked about recruitment as a function in general and today we'll take it as step further. We will try to dive a bit more into the recruitment process and discuss some good tactics that people could benefit from. Sounds good Erwin? That's the plan.

Sure, let's see how much time we have alright. We'll see maybe to three hours podcast. Who knows, we'll see. What are the symptoms of a deficient recruitment process? How could you help identify them?

Erwin:
Yeah, I think, if you're looking at the recruitment process about what's going wrong, first you need to know what is what is your goal and 'cause. I don't know. Maybe it is your goal to have a very cheap process and you don't really follow the quality that much. You just need labor that's there for half a year, and then it's gone. And then let us say a very cheap or quick process is fine, but if you're looking for a different kind of role that you really need to have quality or that you're looking to hire long term, you will set up your recruitment process accordingly. So that is really the very general answer. But again, it really depends, but if you want to go for more bit more of a specific answer, there's a structure that you normally want to set up. And it starts of course with knowing what you want to hire. If this person is what kind of skills this person needs to have for your company and what you want to build forward in your company and also in the team that the person will be placed in. If they will make their own team. If the managers need to be involved, and then again you think steps further, what is this role exactly, where you are searching someone for. Because of course that will be the first question that the candidate will ask like "OK, what do you want me to do?". And then they want to see you of course, OK well. What is my responsibility as well? Because we all know that this is very frustrating when you have an interview with someone and everything is nice. You have a good conversation but you don't know what you will be doing there. I mean, it's all nice and well, but yeah, you are. On the other hand need to know what your performance is judged on and how you can perform better. If you want to exceed or want to grow further. All those kinds of expectations depend on what your job description will be. Then of course, then it's very important for the company to find out how they really can find out if the person has the skills that they need for a job. And as I said earlier, this depends again on what the job is it for. If it is a very short term role where it's really focused on, for example, language knowledge, let's say custom service, and then you can have a short language assessment and then we can always talk about how you do that. But let's say you want to judge the skills in an adequate way for what the role requires. But if you have, let's say, more of a technical role where you want to judge on coding capabilities than you will want to judge on that. And you need to find a way and a baseline of what kind of level of skills you need for a role to be able to perform how you want it to be in that decision. But that is of course, first you need to know what you want them to do and what is actually good performance. Or actually the expected performance of the position. That is the very first research you always do before you actually even open the role or before you even let HR know, or the recruiters, that they should be found for these positions. Of course, 'cause and companies and HR managers can be involved in this discussion, because they'll probably know best.

Ivo:
Yeah, so you would say that. Imagine that you're right now an HR professional or even a recruiter in the company. If you see that. There are no goals. You see that, we don't know if we're hiring long term or short term. If you see that there'sno one involved in this scale, profiling and all those things. Those are already symptoms that the process is not; It's not there, right? There's work to be done before start hiring people, right?

Erwin:
It does not mean that you will not be successful in hiring a person, only you will be more at risk for hiring a person who will not be a great fit. Yeah they will not maybe stay longer unless that is of course not what you want. So it really depends on how you want to set it up. But you are putting yourself open for a lot more risk if you're not being as thorough with the preparation.

Ivo:
Yeah, so to set up this recruitment process properly, how important is it to have managers and leadership in setting up that process? Because I think the goals also come from there, right?

Erwin:
Absolutely, yeah of course management and leadership determines the strategy, and you would always say that the hires and hiring policy or the recruitment strategy should fall in line with the general company policies and what they also see for the future. And so if a company wants to develop, and again let me just keep on that example, into a more technical AI way, I don't know what. They will need to of course support that strategy of a company with hiring more capable people or more of the same people that they already have to facilitate this growth that the company desires to go to. And so that is really something that recruitment serves. Of course, the greater purpose of the company strategy?

Ivo:
Yeah, absolutely. So to recap on this, before we move to to hiring specifically. Set up goals, that's the first step. Very important. Have clear goals or what what you need to do in terms of hiring involves the management and leadership and then you you will have enough to start hiring properly. Right?

Erwin:
Exactly and let's say like this, everybody needs to be on one side of home. One needs to be aligned to agree that this is what we're going to hire for, because there is nothing more confusing for a recruiter to have five candidates and all of them are great, but for some reason there none of them is great. And all that comes up, all the interviews have been done. Time has been wasted not only from the candidate but also from the management. So you really want to make sure that everybody is aligned and has made a decision like this is what we're looking for.

Ivo:
All right. That's clear enough. So if we move towards hiring. When do you hire internally? When do you move to fill a position internally or externally? How do you make the difference? Maybe can you give some examples of that?

Erwin:
Yeah, I'll try to talk through a few examples. OK, this is of course the eternal discussion in this day and age, right? And like should we hire internally because we want to grow people and give them the satisfaction? Or do we hire externally? Because that's just easy. And there's arguments to be made for both ends. Internal is something that is very helpful if you're looking for candidates, that, or if you're looking for a role where it is very important to know how a company internally operates. If you are, let's say a company that has a lot of bureaucracy, the onboarding time for a new hire will take a lot longer for someone who's actually familiar already with how the company works, who to talk to, how to get to the next stage. So that is something that you can hardly incorporate in how you're searching for a person.

On the other hand, internal hirings is alsomething that generally isn't really possible if your company has a clear vision on how to do succession planning and how to do workforce planning. Because then you really realize that this person and let's think from the company perspective. The company, again, with this example that I said wants to grow into the AI business whatever, and so they know that we need more people with coding skills. So if the company already knows this two years ahead, or maybe one year ahead or even half a year ahead, they know that they probably have a budget for hiring people with this and that they can also invest in teaching people to code, and if they have a specific level that somebody needs to reach, they already, and it's completely foreign to your whole workforce, you will want to hire externally because they will bring all kinds of new ideas. We have them, new skills, new combinations, new insights, and so they will bring that in as well.

So it's really a balance of how well you are prepared to actually make this switch to. They cater to the strategy of the of the company and but on the other hand internal is always good because then you can motivate more people to really give them that growth that companies love to sell employees when they're joining. And really make that true, and there's a lot of benefits of course, to that, like less hiring costs, more motivation, more referrals and people stay longer in the company. But on the other hand, if the company strategy is going completely different way, then you probably will want to have people with new ideas because the old ones who are already there, are probably more set in their way. So there are a lot of balance is that you want to take. And really, depending on where you're going, you will want to weigh each to each other.

But with the workforce planning and succession planning. That really depends on how structured a company can be. That is not always a luxury a lot of them can afford.

Ivo:
Yeah, indeed, I think one more point to that. Maybe you touched well, it's included on the workforce planning and and and those those things, which is skills mapping, right? Because a lot of companies, sometimes they don't have a clear idea of what skills exist right now in the in the company. That's very important too, right?

Erwin:
Yeah, absolutely skills. Or competencies if you go to the broader framework is a really important thing and it is easier said than done to have a skill or competence framework to really have insight into what skills and competencies you have in a company because that is of course the Holy Grail. You want to know what experience, what knowledge you have and what you actually need to get outside. And if you have that insight and good luck to you, 'cause you probably know exactly what to do. But if you don't, then you probably need to find a middle way and find a way to, as I say, make it understandable or how much you still need. Or if you just need quantity of skill, or if you need quality of a skill.

Ivo:
That's a great point. Alright, if we go towards the externally; to hiring externally, What are the best strategies to increase the chance to attract and hire the right person?

Erwin:
Oh we're going to talk about recruitment branding 'cause it's probably more your topic then!

Ivo:
Well, I can share my view, but why don't you go first?

Erwin:
Sure, I know. Again. It falls a little bit in what I was saying before. Because especially now after the COVID age, or I hope it will soon be after, that it is really important to hire people. And there's a lot of job offers for everyone almost here. So let's say companies are looking for skills that are hardly able to be found. And so what you want to do is to make sure that you are the fastest, easiest, and of course the best company out there. A lot of things go that way. Of course we talked, I think a little bit short in our last meeting about the branding, the employer branding and the EVP, the employer value proposition that you have as a company and these things are important to be that shining beacon. If we fall back to the same language.

But on the other hand, when you have a person's interest, you need to capture them to say in a very specific term and make sure they start with you as soon as possible. That is done by having your recruitment process in a fairly strict, well that's not the right word. In a very clear way set up, so that everybody knows what to do. So if you apply that the recruiter gets a message like hey, a good person, apply it. Who has a good fit-score for example. And that they immediately get notified and the recruiter already makes a call as soon as possible. The hiring manager is already informed like this is a high potential role in that state. The next day you might already have an interview, and if that interview is good and you have a good feeling about it, you might already involve the hire manager, I don't know. And and then the next week you already have an offer there. Because you want to make sure that you have this person offered and before they might have the time to find a better offering in another company. Yeah, it may be, of course, in balance, if they will find a better offer, but you as a company don't really care for that, you want that knowledge that experience, that quality in your company as soon as possible. So you need to show the benefits and now actually show the truth that your recruitment process is just as efficient as you want the company to be too.

Ivo:
Yah, no totally agree. I think we we touched the beat this subject in the in the episode before. Yeah from my side my perspective in marketing is that that shining beacon being that shining beacon doesn't happen overnight. That's one thing that people need to consider. You need to put your content out there. You need to show how are you as an employer? I think that's something really important. Sharing the activities that that you're doing that people that you're looking for. How are people treated in in your in your organization? Maybe getting sneak peeks of the process, how it is recruiting people in the in the in the company, how referrals work, those kind of things that you can use with a career website or anything like that. I think that that can also help. Besides of course having a very well structured process in place that exactly what you want from your hires.

Erwin:
Yeah, but it's also more that you do what you say right. Because I've also had recruitment conversations with recruiters of companies. And let's say we meet up over. We plan a call or video call at 3:00 o'clock and then I wait for five to ten minutes before they actually show up. This is of course a very small thing, but it actually impacts immediately on how you actually judge a company to be. This is the first person your gatekeeper and that first impression. Of course from the whole psychology perspective. Is the one you keep at least underlying everything, so that first personal impression is not right. You want to make sure that it does go right so you don't show any negatives before. Of course they already hired. Hopefully after that also not.

Ivo:
You can not only talk to talk, but also walk the walk, right? That's how it goes. Yeah, and in this I say word of mouth is still the most powerful marketing tactic for marketing purposes for sales. But also for employer branding. Your employees will be your your best, let's say, profit, and talk about the company, how good it is to work there, how how they how they keep their promises and so on. So they evolve them. I think you should involve them also in that employer branding strategies that you might have.

Erwin:
Yeah, no absolutely and your applicants, I would even go a step further, are your biggest promoters. They already know your company, your brand probably are consumers of your company product, because otherwise they wouldn't have found it. And then of course. They want to work for you. That shows a lot of commitment to what you're actually doing as a company, and so you really want to make sure they are as positive as they can be through the process, even if they might not get the role.

Ivo:
Absolutely. All great points. Let's move a bit to tools or some tactics that are most affected, or that you believe to be most effective when hiring people. I'm more interested to know like what is your feeling when you compare like one on one interviews for example, with interviews with multiple stakeholders at the same time? Sometimes that can be a bit frightening for the applicant, digital interviews you're viewing on practical assessment. Which tools do you think are the most effective when hiring people?

Erwin:
Again at the fair, I sound like a more person who always goes very broadly. It depends. If you are looking for a very practical role, or let's say roll, there's not necessarily skills driven. You can do fine with having an interview and see what kind of character a person has. If they have the culture fit as they would say it. If they would fit in the team that you're looking to put them in and then then you can do a bit more shorter again. A bit more and colloquial them or all the way of how you have an interview like just talking about the role and understanding what their motivations are. But if you have of course, a role that's more based on skills, which more and more happens these days, you need to find a way to have a good assessment of this. And that's always starts with also how you plan your recruitment process, because depending on how many applicants you have, you need to fund all your whole applicant pipeline and there is where systems come in for the best way because. If you are a company, even the biggest company in the world, if they have a 1000 recruiters, probably will not be able to service the enormous amounts of applications that are coming to them. For them, it's a really big filter from going to 10 thousands a week or something, and we only have a 100 potential candidates, so that's a very important aspect as well. But then again to go further you have again skills that you want to have a judge it based on your recruitment process. And if they have the right coding capabilities, or if they are the right languages.

You need to find a way to teach over to test this, this can be done with a person who knows the codes as well, but also there is a risk of including bias in there. Because if you do it face to face, and who knows, maybe someone has a tendency to hire people who look exactly the same as them so there comes also systems in place to make sure that there's very unbiased and performance based that you can make a decision on that. And when death is confirmed, when they are actually skills wise a good candidate, you can move them forward to the next process, and the more and more new things are also developing there for the video interviews where you just have an interview with the camera to say it like that. Yeah, and they also analyze how you talk and watch intonation is and how general the right answers are given and what needs to be included more and more. This is coming, which is of course very interesting to see. But that doesn't take away that you need to have a personal touch with the company,

And how much you want to funnel and make it automatic. You do want to speak with a person, otherwise you think that OK, this is not something that really exists and that's my personal opinion.

Ivo:
Yeah, absolutely.

Erwin:
To be honest, I did join FourVision without actually seeing someone in person. But hey, that's corona times.

Ivo:
Yeah me too!

Erwin:
That is actually something that kind of underscores the point, right? You need to make sure that you trust the company as an applicant and as a company you need to make sure that. You do the right way by getting the right people for their skills, and experience is not for how well they fit your I said expectations.

Ivo:
I think these are all great points and examples to come. Yeah it really it really depends. And Corona changed a lot of things as well. I think we'll see. Yeah, more and more people getting used to these video interviews because they are simple, easier, no costs associated. But at the same time. Like for the last stage, you want to meet people in person because one thing is to talk to a camera and you see you see some things. You can already figure out some things, but it's not the same thing as looking someone in the eyes and having a proper conversation. Proper human contact, right?

Erwin:
And you also want to feel how the workfloor feels like.

Ivo:
Yes, absolutely. OK, after the hiring process, do you think candidate feedback is important. Asking candidates for feedback and why is that?

Erwin:
Well, and yeah, it's just like throwing in an open window. Feedback is always important, just in general as well, and this is how we improve and how we know that we have done something wrong. If I am singing every night at karaoke and everybody is folding their ears because it's completely horrible, then I can choose to take a hint. Or I can just ignore it until somebody really tells me it is horrible. Yeah, you need to have this feedback. And then of course we also want to go to constructive feedback, because you need to know what you can improve, or what your strong points are, or what your less strong points are. And feedback in the same way works for a company and their recruitment process and everything they've done. Let's say if we go back to that example that you have a coding test on online platform. And that's in your opinion was absolutely amazing to test the right coding skills, but in the mean time. You get feedback from 5 to 10 candidates on a fairly candid group, I would say that the test was not really applicable to the coding language that you actually were hiring for. You need to be open to really listening to what the candidates have to say, because more often than not they are also experts on the topic and they really want to help you find the right people and hopefully that is them of course, but they really want to make sure that the things are done in the right way and and what I said as well. Feedback about a recruiter being 10 minutes late. If this happens structurally then this is something really to look at in your organization and this feedback can really show you things that you as a company might not necessarily be looking at. It can really help with improving that process and making people even more confident and more efficient going through the process to be hired sooner.

Ivo:
Yes, I think, yeah, I think you can take a lot of learnings from that indeed. But I just have the feeling again, I'm not a recruiter. I experienced recruitment processes before, but I have the feeling that companies sometimes they are just above that. They don't include that in the process and yeah, maybe they don't take those hints. Sometimes it's just the feeling that it takes too much time. It really needs to be thought of in the process. It's part of the recruitment process, don't you think?

Erwin:
Yeah, I mean, this is very suggestive, of course, but absolutely you're right. Again, I've done recruiting myself and I know of course that you're not necessarily busy with feedback from a candidate, especially if they're not hired because you want feedback from the ones that are hired. But in the end, if they are hired, they will probably not give you bad feedback. And so it is really a contentious because you want to spend time on this and so then it really depends on the organization structure. If they want to give a voice to this feedback or even want to gather it at all, and then you need to see of course how you can incorporate this, because there are plenty of companies who gather feedback, but they have it somewhere in an Excel list, far away in the backgrounds of their whole systems or their documentary boxes. But they don't do anything with it. So there's a real challenge in that and you're absolutely right, and to ask for feedback to listen to the feedback and actually do something with the feedback. But if you do get this right, you will see that your promoters, even the ones who are not getting hired, will really love to talk about your company and they will still stay as a true consumer or customer of your company, even if they did not get hired. And this is what you want to get: people promoting your name everywhere without effort. This is how we do it, by realizing that feedback in your process.

Ivo:
No absolutely I agree. But yeah. Like going to the first sentence that you used on this question, which is "feedback is important everywhere", not only to the the recruitment. Even in the general terms in your daily work with their managers, whatever, it's hard. It's hard to take it sometimes, it's hard to give it. It's hard to take it into consideration. So I guess in recruitment is the same specially like. From people that you didn't hire. Because some of those actually can really help with insights, but it's I guess you need to put it in the process and just take it into account if you can.

Erwin:
It's a good point that you mentioned that as well, because that does remind me that there are of course a lot of people because they are not hired, will give a very scathing review/feedback, that you think like "Oh this person must have stepped on a Lego somewhere and has to fend everywhere their anger". But, again, even if it is completely irrational feedback, it does come from somewhere, and so it does always help to see how this person has interpreted something going wrong. Or well. But at least it's always good to listen still,

Ivo:
Yeah, people can get very defensive sometimes, and then it stops being constructive feedback. But yeah, indeed, I think it's a good point there.

Moving just towards the end, to the tools and how tools can can help us. Getting this recruitment process figured out in a better way. There was this research I was looking into, from Career Builder, that did identify that HR managers who do not fully automate say they lose an average of 14 hours a week manually completing tests that could be automated. I guess CV screening and those types of things, looking into skills? Figuring out a job profiles and those kind of things. You work with the Phenom platform that actually helps a lot. Recruiters. Specifically made to make the talent experience hiring better. So how could that help if you can give us an idea of how can help automate and reduce the amount of manual work that recruiters have.

Erwin:
Yeah, it is not only the manual work for the recruiters, but that she mentioned as well for the for the hiring managers and almost everyone who is involved in the recruitment process. That's a very good point and there are of course plenty of systems who can help automate a lot of things, but again, I've said that I think in an article years ago: You can have the most wonderful systems in place, but if you don't have a strategy and structure designed and agreed upon by everyone. That beautiful shining pearl of the most expensive system you have will account for nothing and you need to train people to use this. And because again, if I am not able to use a typewriter, I think it's a hunk of junk and you don't want to be able to use it. You just want to write in that beautiful handwriting because that's more pretty. And again, we have to recruitment process and the systems you want to make sure that that is in line, and then you can see what parts of it you can automate. And as I mentioned earlier. You can automate maybe the funnel how things come in with pre-screening questions to make sure that everyone it is just outright not fit for the role is not even coming through to your application bin. And then there are also all kinds of other forms that you can probably set up through the Phenom as well and other platforms that they can ask more questions with more details about more specific examples or even with the video interviews that you can also have video recordings of how you respond to a specific situation. Or how you indeed really do that skills test. All these things you can actually pretty much automate and but you want to make sure that you put that in the right place of your process where you need it to be, and then you can actually save time in that sense. And this goes on and on. We've also with the interview process, are you using a coordinated or recruitment coordinators who planned this for the recruiters, or are the recruiters doing it themselves? And who has insight into the calendar? Is this calendar insightful for everyone in the company? So, can you actually have the authority to plan a meeting for the hiring manager, or are you just going all the way AI, and you let and I say the scheduler just plan it for you. Or even better, you give your whole calendar to the applicant and say "OK, you pick your time when you want to talk with us." And all these kind of automations have options to go further and then you go. Of course further and further into the process and then again you have the automation of the documents that you want to sign the discussions about the salary and position and reward. All these things you can already agree on beforehand, so as you can save time and automate those processes and actually get more benefits out of that and save time. And when you actually do it so you can hire that person quicker and better.

Ivo:
Yes, that's plenty of options that the tool gives you for recruiters and hiring managers alike, so that's great insight. A lot of good questions to ask yourself if you recruited out there and just trying to figure out the process or a tool or whatever. Those are great questions that...

Erwin:
You have to realize that each part of the recruitment process has thankfully a lot of development and how you can automate this or how you can make it better or even with the sourcing with all the kinds of tools and a lot of things are happening, which is great, but you really can make almost a topic of every small part of the interview, and it's really good to make sure that you are researching and finding out what fits your company. Again, you can have the money or you cannot have the money. It really depends on how quickly you want such a thing in place. You know, the typical triangle that they always use in project management. You can have the one with time and money and quality. I have two of those and it will always impact the other. And if you want to hire someone quicker it will impact the quality and the costs. If you want to hire cheap. It will impact how long it will take to hire someone and what kind of quality. This is always the the balance you have to make in the end for every company to decide on their own. There is always that shining Pearl that you will have to find the one that fits you absolutely.

Ivo:
Just a general question that I was just thinking about. As you were speaking and maybe these tools, these platforms, can now help you with with that as well. So not only out of all of the candidates we have a full depending on the company. I don't know you have twenty or a hundred sometimes. But often only one gets the job right? That's how it works. And so how do you make sure that you keep other candidates? Interesting profiles? I mean like you go with that. Sometimes it is really hard, sometimes they have like 3 profiles that you really like it. You don't know you need to pick one. How do you keep the other the other ones interested? In the talent pool. How can you refer back to them? What? What would you have to say about that? Like how would you keep them interested?

Erwin:
This is exactly a very good example where you can use these systems for and the Phenom People system. They have a wonderful campaign functionality that can track any kinds of talent pool you can think of. And if in your example you want to use the 'silver medalists' as they call it, so that one didn't really get it, and still make sure that they will be tied to your company and that you can reach out to them as soon as you have another position for them. Or who knows, maybe your gold medalist was absolutely not a medalist and you want to find this person hired and as soon as possible instead of that person. And so you're absolutely right, this is where you can create talent pools or even batches of people for certain skills that you make sure that you have a campaign to set up with them, or even reminders for yourself that you have a short touch based moment, where you really stay in touch with them, so that they are warm as soon as you have a spot opening. So you can put them in the hot seat as soon as possible, and really, this is where those systems can remind you and keep track of these kinds of talents that you have already used because it would be a waste, to waste maybe six months of hard sourcing to find that specific director candidate or that niche specialist and then throwing it all away to never be used again and to start again from scratch. That is completely a waste.

Ivo:
Yeah, because I have that feeling sometimes. I have never through my career... I applied, and if I don't get it, I was never contacted again by that company.

Erwin:
For a similar or different role, yeah.

Ivo:
Look it might mean that I was not a silver medalist. I get that. But I get the feeling that a lot of times you just want to start the process all over again. It's just, you forget to CVS, you create a new campaign to hire someone and it just go through the process all over again when it's sometimes a waste of time. You had people already in the pool, right?

Erwin:
But this is not really about silver medalist. This is more about the skills and qualities you possess. And again, in that one role you apply for, you might be just the runner up, but it could be that they are hiring or exactly your role in two months from now, which is actually that the one who got this role where you apply for first wasn't suitable for, but you are absolutely for, and so it really depends. You want to make sure that the company or at least with the systems you can make an overview of what skills and qualities person have. So you can actually make a connection even if you never had that before. What you said that you throw away six months of sourcing and then you open a role that was completely unrelated, but they're actually in the six months of sourcing you found a person who actually is very good for that. If you didn't use these systems, you will completely overlook them and you never know that you have this talent already there, waiting to join, because they apparently already applied. They're very eager to join you. Yeah, that's the short of it, so don't waste any effort. That's the thing here.

Ivo:
Yeah, exactly and use tools or search for it. There are tools out there to help you out with this kind of things.

Erwin that's all about it. That's all I had for you today. I think it was great. We gave some good tactics and input to people out there regarding recruitment. Is there anything like a message that you would like to leave for Recruitment folks out there. Like don't despair. Your gold medalist will be, you'll find your gold medalIST. Let's just make sure that you have you set the basics first. The process. What what would you say?

Erwin:
If you go that direction? The only thing I can say that as so as long as you have a good insight in what you want to hire for, you will find this person. And then of course you need to make the distinction between again what I said before the time money and the quality. And with that you need to be confident that you hire the right person. And if you have set up the process and will come in time.

Ivo:
Absolutely all right, Erwin, thank you so much for taking the time. This was really great. I hope you enjoyed it too.

Erwin:
Of course I did. Thank you for having me again. Alright, take care people out there, take it easy. We'll see you next time.


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